Discussion about elite gropus of races

[makazuwr32]

About imperials, uruks, giants of orcs (including minotaurs), sentinels, mithrils, phantoms and lizardmen:
I tried few single player games between 4 current basic races (i don't touch for now dwarves and scaledfolks) without these groups and i must say that actually it is extremly well balanced.

And INSTEAD OF changhing stats of all these categories (unless they are really needed like for sentinel) i want just to separate them from main body of race. For 4 turns of writing tech + turns cost of 1 level of research for elite group of race (2-6 turns, some units of elites can be unlockes only after researching certain additional sub like for unlocking olog hai you will need giant sub tier 2 or 3 along with uruks).

Reasons for that:
1. Increasing weight of basic units.
2. Increasing value of basic unit upgrades.
3. Easier and better balance.

Please argument your position. Why you agree or disagree with this? if you disagree what are your suggestions? Argument them.

[StormSaint373]

A question? Could it be possible if each subrace/sub-faction, will eventually get their own "unique/legendary unit? I am meaning this for later though, but could it be possible to do so?

[Tankhead]

It could but Alex or dev ( someone ) gonna make Legendary/unique units a setting ( on or off ) in game making.
So those units will be nothing more than fun units like heroes

[makazuwr32]

This discussion is about imperials, uruks and such. Not about unique units.

[StormSaint373]

This discussion is about imperials, uruks and such. Not about unique units.

No-no, what I mean is...

Unique Uruk unit, Unique imperial unit, unique Sentinel, etc

[makazuwr32]

Not for now.
For now no unique units would be accepted and even more some ready ones would be wiped out from production.

[StormSaint373]

Ok, maybe later. Thank you for letting me know.

[Savra]

Well, all giants sub would unlock is 2 units so that should just be researched like normal siege. Elite groups should just count as second tier of main race and not full on sub because they all have relations to main race like being trained in some of main races buildings.

They shouldn't require writing to get but require you to research them at your mega building to unlock them since all elites are accessible through their. Those elites with buildings of their own would use their main building to upgrade themselves or just train their units without having to take up so much space. They would still cost ruby's to unlock since you'll be unlocking them all together but they should not be classified under the same sub group as other full sub races.

Buying the sub groups will also be combined with any upgrades that may come with it since some subs can just be upgraded through the main races blacksmith upgrades, and some require the main races blacksmith upgrades to unlock. Olog hai already require 3 different upgrades to upgrade, giant+troll+uruk I don't see why they are considered much of a problem either since they act no different from ents except ents can carry units like archers and such so why should ologs be treated like their any worse just because they have good armour and health? They can be easily killed by fire and ice killed them easily with dwarves as well just use their defender of mithiril guard and you'll find its not that hard.

[makazuwr32]

Giants are not only ettin and hamletback. Into this category also fit all trolls including olog hai as well as minotaurs.
As for olog hais - their problems are
1. Ability to transport via wagons;
2. Their ridicilously high damage;
3. Their regeneration (i think 14 or 21 hp).
Even fire is not enough to kill them.

[Tankhead]

( deleted )

[Savra]

Ologs have a lot of weaknesses:
Fire which is stackable, get 5 and the ologs read within a matter of seconds.
It's a giant meaning giant slayer gain bonuses to them.
It's a heavy infantry so anti armoured units can ignore it's armour.
Unaffected by certain spells.
Can't have fire pit out without a unit with disenchant helping it.
Require 2 other upgrades before they can be upgraded.
All they need is a cost increase to 8 and it should be fine.

Ents start off with similar stats and also can be upgraded, I believe one of them upgrades can allow them to regenerate as well.
They can also carry 2 units making them even more better.
Can have fire pit out by builders and by disenchant.


Trolls in general aren't all giants because of that were the case the troll headhunter would require 2 upgrades to reach their next tier.

True giants include hamlet back, ettin, giant marksmen. All of which should just be treated like humans siege units which require techs for 2 of them. We could make the giants work in the same way but make it:

Minitor
Cave troll
Hamlet back

Be your starting.

Ettin
Giant Marksmen

Be what you get at final orc giant upgrades.

Increase orc giant upgrades cost to 5 for beginning, 8 for final.

Minitour doesn't have upgrades that are related to the orc giants upgrades but could be counted as one still but it would be somewhat like the troll headhunter and his upgrades.

Since ettin and giant marksmen don't have upgrades but are the strongest siege units orcs can get, they will require the final orc giants upgrades. They would be no different then a ballista and trebuchet for humans, the cave troll is like a battering ram, he may be strong but he has weakness to fire as well. Hamlet back is like the war elephant.

It's already had enough that all orc giants require more then one upgrade anyway to upgrade:
Cave troll: troll upgrades+ giant upgrades
Hamlet back: orc upgrades+ goblin upgrades+ giant upgrades
Olog hai: troll upgrades+ giant upgrades+ uruk upgrades

Making them a sub is just taking the orcs siege away from them, making them like humans siege in requiring research to get the better ones is much simpler.

Btw, someone plz fix the hamlet backs upgrade system, when you upgrade him you have to go in the factory they are being produced in and change the hamlet back out for the elite hamlet back and the same goes for the master one.

[makazuwr32]

1. For now no upgrades allow ents to regenerate.
2. For supporting olog hais orcs have troll shamans with 100% regen spell.
3. Ents can't be mend actually. Fire can be removed by heal of druids.
4. Minotaurs are giants for bonuses.
5. Ettins i can't say that they are strongest their "siege unit".
6. And again. About olog hais:
6.1. Olog hais even on level 1 are really powerful. Ridicilously powerful. 131 hp and 31 damage - highest hp and damage among all melee units! Ents have 120 hp and 15 damage.
6.2. If you will support your olog hais with troll shamans than enemy will require to kill olog in one turn or you will completely heal it next turn regardless of fire.
6.3. 5 stacks of fire is not enough to kill them. If these stacks are from buildings/fireballs. I once put 20 (!!) stacka of fire from 6 castles and 2 towers and yet olog lost next turn only 40 hp. (Remember that they also still have their own regeneration! 21 hp/turn.)
6.4. Anti armored units for now are not exist exept of undeadish phantom flailman.
6.5. It is affected for now by almost all spells.
6.6. And they don't need those upgrades — they are insanely powerful by themselves in base already.

So ologs must require both giant and uruk subs. And remember that trolls maybe will gain an expansion (spoilers!!!).

And about siege.
Orcish fodder cannons are actually for now most op siege units.

[Savra]

Starting olog has 116 Hp, tier 3 olog has 132 hp, starting olog has 7/4 armour, and has 4/8 or maybe 3/8 armour and 120 life at start the major difference between the 2 is that the Ent warrior has 15 attack and will be able to carry units, plus has a group attack aura, while the olog starts with I believe 31 attack and troll regeneration.

Btw, troll shaman and orc shaman can't put fire out with their potions, and Ent warrior should be repairable by workers like the other ent.

As for the fodder cannon it should probably just get lower range and some other reductions. Orcs need to have some units buildable only in certain structures not all piled into the tc.

Ologs still are vulnerable to giant slayers, I killed one with a dwarven defender. The plot has to have 3 upgrades to unlock its next tier, and by raising the giants upgrade cost which is currently at 3 we would make them harder to get because they also have to wait for the orc upgrades and soon the cavalry upgrades to be upgraded.

Olog hai xp 3 is the strongest yes, but the game would be already over by the time you get it, I don't know why the ologs now have the ability to be effected by spells now, and I don't know why troll regeneration is that high, but since the Ologs will soon be turned into a 8 cost unit plus the fact that you have to research the Uruk elite group tier, it should be fine.

The ettin is decent in taking out enemy troops and air units considering it has aoe 1, 2 actions, and 20 damage.

Trolls sub race should be forest trolls and snow trolls ( make them separate if you want)

The difference is this:
Forest trolls have better regeneration then normal trolls, and have more intelligence then normal trolls, they also are like Snow trolls in the fact that they count as basic infantry.

Snow trolls are hairy trolls that are big but not as big as main trolls, they are immune to fire, but count as normal infantry like orcs and have weaker regeneration.


Main trolls are bigger and stupider then the other 2 groups. They should have regeneration deducted down to 12 hp/turn that way it doesn't cancel out the fire weakness.

[Savra]

In other words, the Snow trolls and forest trolls would be true sub races for orcs in the fact that they will have their own categories of units.

The giants (Ettin and giant marksmen) are no more different then humans ornithcopter, trebuchet, catapult in the fact that they should require a research to get which is why I said go for them being unlocked at final giant research. If we were to make giants and their upgrades separate as a sub race then you screw up the orcs upgrade system because Orc leader requires giant upgrades to upgrade. Hamlet back already requires a lot of upgrades to upgrade in itself, troll headhunter is Orcs only combatant to archers, cave troll is a decent siege unit, troll shaman is the races main healer while the Orc shaman is the races melee support while the soon to be added goblin shaman is Orcs ranged support, ologs are already being put in with Uruks elite group so we don't need troll group too unless it's the forest trolls and snow trolls.

[makazuwr32]

Well than other variant is to change their stats because right now troll headhunters are too op against archers, olog hais are too powerful (they must be unlockable like ettins from last giants upgrade and NOT producable from tent early), fodder cannon must not be affected by spells at all including healing and instead it must be repairable like mechanical unit.

As for ents i think it is weird to make them repairable by workers. It would be like you are repairing for example imperial knight with human worker or dwarven defender with dwarven engeneer. Sounds weird, doesn't it?
And making them buildable is even more weird. So no. Forget about this. Or we will get that dwarves will become most op race because they would be able to repair all their units.

About all giants for now they are different. If they will become unlockable that way than it is fine. Also for now there is no "giant marksman" units in the game.

[Savra]

Those changes are acceptable, btw dnt demolished is repairable by workers but not buildable, and workers just grow stuff but I can see why ents should be healed instead I guess.

[Savra]

Umm, about the ologs requiring giant upgrades at max, doesn't that mean by the time they get that upgrade the plot would already be at max tier when the player finally gets them? I doubt they'll wait to upgrade Uruks to get ologs upgrades as well when they can prepare the whole race till they get the upgrade.

My suggestion is to make a separate upgrade for ologs that sets so you don't start with a XP 3 Ologs when you get that the final giants upgrade.

Basically Uruks receive 2 upgrade paths, one upgrades Uruks at main, and the Olog has a separate upgrade for itself.

In other words:
Giant upgrades 2 unlocks Olog hai
Olog hai require troll headhunter + olog hai upgrade to upgrade to next level.

[Lynx Shafir]

Ologs should be moved to vulcanos only to have something unique
With their research if decide so.

[Tankhead]

Poor Olog
How many restrictions will this unit get before satisfied?
If too many no ones gonna want to even get the unit

[Savra]

I know, apparently it was forgotten that the Uruks will need to be researched first and the phantoms would start out with their Juggernaut.

All because it's too "strong" which was supposed to be how orcs worked, it fell exactly like not the same category as the Orcs specialty. Unlock other races who always extend past it anyways.

All I hear is people complain about Orcs being too strong and you can't beat them. Their baby is too strong because they have only 1 unit to choose from.

[makazuwr32]

uhm they have PLENTY amount of units you can choose from.

[Tankhead]

Since ranges isn't they're specialty, that fodder cannon needs reduce range

And as far as Olog the unit is killed off
Congratulations of that was your goal.

[Savra]

The only ones who should be unlocked by final giant upgrade is the Egg in and the giant marksmen.

Olog hai already have to be unlocked with the Uruk hai anyway which will probably be 8 turns, they can have a separate upgrade system maybe but that's it, they aren't that powerful to me, that would be like saying the ent, which is elves siege unit and starts off with 120 life and doesn't require research to get, is too powerful.

So when you unlock uruks, you unlock Ologs as well, that is all.
It's bad enough they have a lot of restrictions anyway and you all want to continue destroying orcs upgrade system to the point were players will only use main race and nothing else because orcs other stuff would just be too much, so no you didn't end up destroying Ologs by making them unlockable by giant upgrade 2, unrestricted Orcs in general and no one would want to play them after this.

[StormSaint373]

Personally, I take cave troll. It has more options and functionality than the Olog Hai, AND at much lower cost.

[Tankhead]

Exactly storm

Only thing I say change is make it a 7 or 8 cost unit
Otherwise no reason to train a troop that requires too much at high cost also when its main use is distracting enemies

[Savra]

That, makes more sense.

[Savra]

Btw, now that ettins have been moved to the tier 2 of giants upgrades, it needs some boosts to its bonuses at least to make it worth the cost and such. Right now it has hardly any bonuses.

[makazuwr32]

I can't say that.
1. High speed
2. 2 actions + 1 aoe + decent damage
3. High hp.

Alas they can get some buff in bonus damage to buildings and walls (so it will become real melee siege and not a parody).

[Savra]

That's what I meant, the stats are fine but the bonuses need work, if the things carrying a tree around with one arm it should have some bonus to buildings and fortifications.