Strengthen on ranged

[Sunrise Samurai]

With the introduction of dwarves, I've gotten abundant chance to observe what happens when a ranged unit gets strengthen. I'm beginning to think it's too much. +3 power and armors is full blacksmith research, added in early game before they can be researched or late game on top of them. It turns dwarf crossbow from 6 power 1/1 armor to an incredible 9 power 4/4 armor, and pretty early game too.

There's a reason strengthen has never been seriously considered for elves. Anyone can guess what happens when a quick archer has +3 power, but even a human archer would gain too much. I've mentioned a few times it's too much on headhunter already, but goblin archers and uruk archers get pretty powerful with it too. Group attack is alright I'd say, since it requires research to improve and a costly unit to carry it, plus it doesn't carry armor upgrades.

I think it's hit the point to remove strengthen from ranged units.

[Midonik]

I always thought that ranged cannot be strenghtgened, but if it's possible then we should remove it. Surely from dwarven crossbowmen and ralfieman-first, it doesn't make sense-how higer strength makes you better with crossbow or ralfie, second,thats too much. With archers it might make some sense, but..there are strong already, using dwarven priest or orc shaman to buff unit if allied elf or even human archers is terrafaing We might leave it for headhunter and axe throwers-that acctualy makes sense without doubt, if they are not op with it.

[Sunrise Samurai]

Axe throwers seem ok for strengthen. They're melee at minimal range. Headhunters present the same problem as quick archers, but with more defense and actions to add to.

[makazuwr32]

Headhunters even more op with that i think so definately no strengthen to any ranged unit exept axe throwers (both orc and human)

[makazuwr32]

I want to reopen this topic because right now we have orcs with orcs strength ability and in plans blessing for humans and dwarves and curse for undeads. All these abilities increase attack value of affected unit and for ranged units (especially with multi action)this is way too big buff.

Question is:
how should we balance them?

Options:
1. % based bonus attack.
Advantages - will be easier to balance, won't be too op for ranged units
Disadvantages - will become way too powerful on units with high attack value which will result in being more effective to cast onto more damaging units
2. Giving 2-3 variants of each spell - for melee, for shooters and for throwers with different bonus attack values (or as another variant - to give for spell different effects depending on target)
Advantages - good for balance (alas harder a bit to balance), won't be too op for ranged units
Disadvantages - each spell that gives bonus attack and can affect ranged units will require new abilities (or effects for same spell) which will affect exactly ranged units, requires more work and more careful maintainance, maybe some more
3. Completely exclude ranged units from possible targets and make new spells which will target specifically ranged units.
Advantages - easiest way to balance things here and now, not so hard to maintain, can be given for new caster units
Disadvantages - i do not know any actually apart from more work is required to make them
4. Keep things as they are - meaning that orcs can get +18 attack for their ranged units; for troll headhunter it is almost double of their attack value
Advantages - no things will be changes
Disadvantages - too unbalanced

Need your opinions.
Maybe you can suggest some better ideas?

[Midonik]

Can you explain what exactly is the difference between points 2. and 3? Does 2. mean that there will be one ability with different effects on different unit categories? And 3. instead has different abilities? I'm a little co confused.
From the options you listed and the way you put them those are the only two sensfully solutions. We don't want imbalance after all.

[Stratego (dev)]

I think we should totally remove all buffs from ranged orcs - orcs should be a primarily heavy meele race (imho)

so think version "3" but excluding this "and make new spells which will target specifically ranged units"

[makazuwr32]

Point 2 will be like strengthen for melee, strengthen on throwers and on shooters with completely same effects exept attack for categories.
Not sure if it si possible to apply different effects depending on category thus it could be either in form of additional abilities for SAME caster with same effect or in form of additional effect for ability.

Point 3 on the other hand is to make current effects to be melee only (PURE) and design from scrap new abilities for ranged units only.
They can or can not have same effects like other spells race has.

An example:
Bless effect is planned to give +2x spell power attack (8-12) and +1x spell power armor (4-6) to unit.
In variant 2 we will design either effect for same ability that will give different bonus attack value for shooters and throwers or will make 2-3 bless spells - bless (melee), bless (shooter), bless (thrower). exept attack all other effects will be kept same (also duration and other conditions like we will not apply until next attack or until unit moves conditions to forcefully vanish effect).
in variant 3 we will design completely new effect that will not be based on bless thus it can give for example bonus attack and only p.armor or bonus attack (big bonus) but will last until first attack and so on.

option 3 also does not force us to make effects purely for ranged units for race.
it just we completely separate melee and non-belee castable buffs in this option and current all-round buffs will become purely melee ones. If needed thrower or shooter buffs for race can be added separately.

[makazuwr32]

I think we should totally remove all buffs from ranged orcs - orcs should be a primarily heavy meele race (imho)

so think version "3" but excluding this "and make new spells which will target specifically ranged units"

I think orcs should have fairly good thrower units but not shooters which is why i am fine with buffs for non-shooter orcish units alas they must be balanced well.

[Anchar]

That is, in this topic, as I understand it, are spear and ax throwers or all ranged units including archers? If we mean all ranged units, then which of the options includes adding skills to spellcasters to increase the ranged armor of melee fighters (like the troll shaman's ability to increase armor)?

[Stratego (dev)]

I think we should totally remove all buffs from ranged orcs - orcs should be a primarily heavy meele race (imho)

so think version "3" but excluding this "and make new spells which will target specifically ranged units"

I think orcs should have fairly good thrower units but not shooters which is why i am fine with buffs for non-shooter orcish units alas they must be balanced well.

good, so orc achers not get buff, but eg. rock throwers get some buff right?
if so seems good.


however i am not aware about all "throwers" , but in general i feel that
a) if a ranged skill needs mostly only muscle power (like throwing a big rock) that can be buffed,
b) but if a ranged needs skill (dexterity) like archers those should not get buffed - so orcs should remain weaker in that weaponry.
at least imho.

[makazuwr32]

This will affect logic of buffing any thrower units (skirmishers, axe throwers, bolas throwers slingers and so on) and all shooter units.
Including mechanical units (if there will be any buffs for those).

This is discussion related how spells which give bonus attack should work when applied to ranged units.

Any other effects (changes to speed, armor, p.armor, dodges, sight, range, minimal damage, bonuses of unit, health, max health, spell power, spell resist...) are not part of this specific discussion.

Alas i should say more about option 3:
for example we have super duper spell that gives to unit +50 attack, +20 to armor and p.armor, +2 to actions, +4 to speed and +100% to spell resistance.
In case of option 3 this spell will become appliable PURELY to melee units. No spell replacement with different attack value but same other effects for ranged units will be made. Instead there is an option that new spell designed for shooters, throwers or both will be (ro will not be) made, stats alas can be (or can not be) similar to current spell.

[makazuwr32]

I think we should totally remove all buffs from ranged orcs - orcs should be a primarily heavy meele race (imho)

so think version "3" but excluding this "and make new spells which will target specifically ranged units"

I think orcs should have fairly good thrower units but not shooters which is why i am fine with buffs for non-shooter orcish units alas they must be balanced well.

good, so orc achers not get buff, but eg. rock throwers get some buff right?
if so seems good.


however i am not aware about all "throwers" , but in general i feel that
a) if a ranged skill needs mostly only muscle power (like throwing a big rock) that can be buffed,
b) but if a ranged needs skill (dexterity) like archers those should not get buffed - so orcs should remain weaker in that weaponry.
at least imho.

Rock throwers i see as siege unit, not as pure thrower, thus i do not want them to be affected by that.
alas troll axe thrower (has same bonuses as quick archer of elves while being thrower) can get buff.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok sounds ok (both post u write).
i just wrote my general view about orcs to be mainly "melee" race not ranged one.

[Savra]

What about having orc shamans strength ability only effect melee units while goblin shaman can have the ability to strengthen throwers instead at a lower value?

[makazuwr32]

This is not about purely orc shaman's strengthen spell but in general about abilities which give bonus attack to unit.

For example me and alex planned at least 4 abilities we wanted to put in:
Humans and dwarves - blessing - gives bonus armor and bonus attack to unit
Elves - red apple - gives bonus attack
Undeads - curse - reduces attack and armor by same amount as blessing
Humans - strengthen - gives bonus attack and armor.

What about them, savra?
Question is how these abilities should work with throwers and shooters.
Red apple of frunt ent for example was supposed to give for single attack +10 attack bonus (before upscale) or +30 now. Should it affect shooters or throwers? Or should we make different ability? Or different effect in terms of power for same ability?

That is what about this discussion. How such abilities should work with melee, throwers and shooters.

[Savra]

I think shooters should get lower values.



Perhaps we might try percentage based but I'll first do some checks on this one to see.

[Savra]

For example if we did percentage based we could for example grant orc strength +10%, it would give a unit with 25 attack +2 while a unit with 65 attack +6.

[Savra]

However I think I can make it so that one spell could apply different values for different unit types, I'll have to check though, but I think I pulled it off with the grim lord

[Savra]

Just checked, ya, I think I can pull this off in a short time probably.

Not in this update though.

[makazuwr32]

i do not like % based spells because they will become more valuable when you cast on unit with higher stats.
For unit with 20 attack +10% will result in only +2 attack while for olog hai with 120 attack it will result in +12 attack.

I prefer numerical values.

Bast variant specifically for myself is 3rd option, when we restrict currently used and planned buffing attack abilities which can be applied to every unit just to affect melee units only.
For throwers and shooters we will make instead completely new spells (if needed).

that variant for me is best.