Entire Naval rework!!

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Belfry777
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Entire Naval rework!!

Post by Belfry777 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:56 am

Ever since the game was created we have always had an issue with scale. The navy in general is too fast, too healthy and all together is not fun; its too slap stick. The fix to this problem is of course not easy but I do think it is possible. So here it goes. The root issue with the navy comes from the size of each ocean tile. Ocean tiles are larger then land tiles by some considerable size but no one knows exactly how big. We do know however, that land tiles are a 100 meters. What makes this tricky is when you try to give range to ships, for instance. The cruiser northhapton has 8 inch guns that could fire a shell about 27 thousand meters. If every ocean tile in aoww was 100 meters then the cruiser should have a range of 2,000 tiles. See the issue? To determine the range of ships, we have to use a un-equal way. The cruiser right now has a range of 7 tiles. If we divide the real range of the gun (27,000 m) by the range given in the game(7,)we get somewhere around 4,000. This number is what every naval gun should be divided by to make proper stats in AOWW. If we use this kind of systematic thinking every time we add a unit we will fix most of the issues this game has.

Speed = (Number of knots) * 12 / 50
Range = (Number of range in meters) / 4,000
Health = ??
Armor = (adverege the number of armor) Then divide by 10
A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.

Stratego (dev)
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Re: Entire Naval rework!!

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:14 am

do not mix movement with attack range they have different propotions currently

in fire range it is 4000m is a tile (this is why tanks have 1 tile range - apart from that i try to avoid having "only ranged units" in game.)

in movement it is not only speed but "operation range" is also calculated on tanks
on tanks: in_game_speed = (speed_in_kmph - 10)/20 + operation_range_in_km/100
naval: in_game_speed = speed_in_kmph/10
planes: in_game_speed = speed_in_kmph/60
bomber planes: in_game_speed = speed_in_kmph/70

all equations are in XLS please check them, we can adjust the values
This number is what every naval gun should be divided by to make proper stats in AOWW
actually currently all such guns calculated the way you suggest (in XLS)

in general to keep playability we need to
a) have most unit speed on minimum 3 tile (less is not playable)
b) have not bigger shoot range than 6-8 (some exceptional thing can have more - like trebuchet in aos)

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DoomsdayDragonfire
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Re: Entire Naval rework!!

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:05 am

Right now, ships speed is ok for me... Reducing it would be bad...

Range, I don't think that's a problem... Their task is to deliver pain on coastal units, and they do their task well... But if you say that they require a nerf, we could test them with halved range equally. Btw, i think we should cap AC range or make them spawn temporary planes and keep ones from airfields instead of that massive atk and range.

My only problem with them is that they own a really drastical amount of health from one class to another + that compared to any other non naval unit is already very high... But i think that we are just lacking the big naval guns for our bunkers on the ground bcz air just sink them all...
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Puss_in_Boots
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Re: Entire Naval rework!!

Post by Puss_in_Boots » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:10 am

Now that multiplayer is public, the problems are past seeping through. I suggest dividing health totals for each individual ship in half. Their hp desperately needs to become proportionate to ground units because at its current state it is almost impossible to bring a ship down from the air forces and ground forces arsenal. What the navy arsenal has currently isn't enough to break a stalemate unless either one navigates their ships recklessly, which almost never happen because they are usually repaired or escorted by cheaper and more easily available units.

Other suggestions also include to give artillery a bonus against ships because they were bulkier targets than infantry or tanks in clear terrain, so they would be more effective against them than other ground units that aren't specifically coastal guns (that we don't have yet).
For rockets, I don't think they work on ships just as well.

Related but more broad: There's also the issue with land units mending ships and airplanes. Since neither planes can land everywhere to be repaired and immediately fly off to rampage unfortunate units, nor would a ship captain decide to beach his ship for repairs from ashore. All ships and planes should be revoked from builder mend. Ships and airplanes have to use their building or carrier to heal them.
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Stratego (dev)
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Re: Entire Naval rework!!

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:33 am

I suggest dividing health totals for each individual ship in half
i tried to separate them from standarsrd unit hp and attacks, as an infantry should not harm a ship much, also looks weird having same hp on a tank and a ship however it has many times more hull.
so i thought well set bonuses could handle all.
we need to find the good counter units against ships (subs, concrete arillery, bonbers and so on) and set the onus properly.


to give artillery a bonus against ships because they were bulkier targets

i have just increased concree artillery bonus against them.
what else unit u suggest to increase to which value?

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Puss_in_Boots
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Re: Entire Naval rework!!

Post by Puss_in_Boots » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:07 pm

Ships almost never get close enough to the coast to be in range of ground units when they already have the best range in game, so I think it will be fine its not like tanks or infantry will be able to shoot it. Also a ship's massive crew can be an unarmored target on the deck if they get close enough when they are manning guns without a shielding turret. It looks wierd to have ships right at the coast, so they should be vulnerable for it. Also I think they need a minimum range of 2 (all battleships and cruisers) since they are quick enough to move units out of its minimum range.

Concrete artillery is the most vulnerable to large ships because they are outranged, immobile and have 0 accuracy penalty. I suggest for all artillery to get at least 500% bonus on ships.

Also is there a way to remove mending from builders?
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Stratego (dev)
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Re: Entire Naval rework!!

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:24 pm

all artillerry please name them, so i can set, because i assume not all, eg not howitzers right? or are they?
also i think no 500% for all kind of ships, now cincrete artillery has (as i remember) +300 against sips, but + 1000% against battleship/carrier. so for moving artilleries also could be similar - maybe the same? (300 - 1000)

build: i like they can be repaired, maybe we could nerf the "constructionbonuswhenmending" value, so they will mend smaller amount

also i can send all the jsons, so when you search for artillery ones you can instantly fix bonuses if that is ok for you.

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Puss_in_Boots
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Re: Entire Naval rework!!

Post by Puss_in_Boots » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:54 pm

Yeah that's good.
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