Game setting - Population Limit (Variant rule - food limits)

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Alexander82
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Game setting - Population Limit (Variant rule - food limits)

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:17 am

To speed up games and to increase the weight of strategy over numbers

This game mode allow a number of units limited by a fixed number (or a number related to map size or tcs number)

You have a certain amount of food and you can build units with a combined turn cost of maximum that amount

Example:

I have 100 food and i can build 50 swordmen or 25 knights or 10 knights and 30 swordmen
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Stratego (dev)
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Stratego (dev) » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:28 am

and how do you get "food"?

if you need to get it in game (like harversing) than that part, i call it "economy" i dont plan to put in - slowing the game, with less intereting part is not a good way imho.

but if you mean on game creation the creator can define what is the POP LIMIT than that is fine, we had such suggestion already.

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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by DoomCarrot » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:12 am

Even something super simple like: Pop setting in game creation, pop 50, 100, 150, 200, unlimited. You can only ever have as many flesh and blood (or even simpler, any type) units as the pop limit.

I think a full fledged, pop-limit gamemode would be very easy to implement, even if we start with a small step like that. :)
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:45 am

Exactly. It is just a population limit. It is to avoid having the entire map filled with cheap units
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:22 am

Btw, the population limit is present in more or less all RTS and it isn't present in TBS like Civilization cause you can store every unit you have in a single city (also in turn based games you can just take a longer turn, while in real time you need to control everyone all at once)

I like the fact the AoS have no limit but in long online games that can definitely bring the game to a deadlocks or stalemates
Even when you are winning it takes eons to make your turn, and that makes you often postpone your games (if your turn is very long you will have to dedicate more time to the game)

A pop limit might help those who want a faster game, leaving those who prefer a no-limit version the chance to use it
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Disco » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:33 am

I think this a great idea!
Would pop limit include buildings (towers etc)?

Also I think there should be a clear representation of your pop in-game, so you can plan ahead, and know where you are in terms of the limit (20/25, 41/100 etc).

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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:33 pm

We might consider towers among a parallel pop limit

For example you might have 200 for units and 200 for towers

In AoF they should be counted in the same for balance reasons (undead towers becomes units and only humans have defensive towers)
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by COOLguy » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:22 pm

Pop limit - yes great idea! Daniel and I had discussed that.

What would be some good ballpark population settings (i.e. how many would be recommended per what size of map?)
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Alexander82
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:44 pm

I would base the population cost on the turn cost (a unit that cost 2 take 2 population, one that cost 5 take 5 population)

I think we should have no more units than 1/2 of the map squares

let's say a map is 30x30 and the squares are 900 (part occupied with mountains and water)
If we make a total pop limit of 1/2 squares and divide it among player we obtain something like

900/2=450
450/4 players= 113 each round up

If you swarm archers or infantry you obtain about 56/57 units per player

If we decide to tie food on tcs we might obtain 450/tcs number rounding up the result (let's say we are playing with about 5 tcs per player, every tc would give us 22 population round up)

That would also make us more free to use bigger maps, because you will really need to plan carefully wich unit you want to use in your strategy and turns would be shorter
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Stratego (dev) » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:44 pm

I suggest that such features could also voted to see which ehancement is most requested. ( It can happen i have no time to implement these like units that are easy to implement but goox to know which is mostly requested)

Patroid invoting module we should handle these kind of votes too.

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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:51 pm

About voting i would differentiate units from techs or game features cause units always win, but i think that more game options or tech would add more depth to the game and those might be voted separately
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Stratego (dev) » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:54 pm

Features yes. In different pool. But techs and units should be in same

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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Disco » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:23 pm

I would love to see more techs to be voted on. But I for one cannot think of any that are not already in game. I did think about putting forward a tech about Meteorite Iron (improve sword strength)..but this isnt entirely accurate in the time frame.

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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:34 pm

There are many ready to be voted
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Disco » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:43 pm

Alexander82 wrote:There are many ready to be voted
Yes there is lol :oops:
But no list like units have. From the out-set, I have no-idea which ones are ready to be implemented, or just ideas etc.

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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by DoomCarrot » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:43 am

As for buuldings, I think a pop limit on that should be optional as well.

Also, I don't think any limits should be enforced for any map size. I think players should simply be able to choose a pop limit, or even type their own in, because that would be cool. :)
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Disco » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:55 am

Yeah agree, more options the better!
It helps setup more individual game types, from "fast-blast" to "slow-flow", and everything in between :)

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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by goose88 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:06 pm

If you implement a simple formula or categories for the cost-to-pop ratio, you could encourage the use of the more advanced units. Personally I think all the great work that has been done to implement Hoplites, Legionnaires, Templar Knights, Hussars, etc is going to waste because they don't get the blacksmith upgrades and become pretty useless compared to upgraded Man-at-Arms and Halberdiers.

You could do:
1 turn cost: 2 pop unit
2 turn cost: 2 pop unit
3 turn cost: 3 pop unit
4 turn cost: 3 pop unit
5 turn cost: 3 pop unit
6 turn cost: 3 pop unit
7 turn cost: 3 pop unit
8 turn cost: 4 pop unit

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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:11 pm

I don't think it is fair...

3 turns 3 pop
7 turns still 3 pop? That seems not fair at all. Who would make 3 turns unit?

Btw i agree about unit that becomes useless, even though thw national game mode could make them used
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by goose88 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:17 pm

The exact number could be adjusted. I'm just trying to suggest a trend that favors more expensive and specialized units. That's just the adjustment I think the game needs. I'm not sure if others agree with that, though. If the blacksmith techs affected all units I think it would do the same job, but that idea has been shot down a few times now.

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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:32 pm

Mmmm We might go for...

1= 1 Pop
2= 2 Pop
3-4= 3 Pop
5-6 = 4 pop
7+= 5 Pop

That way a more costly unit, let's say one that cost 8, would occupy slightly more than double the pop cost than a unit that cost 2

I also believe that the population criteria should be choosen by the game creator


Criterias might fall in those categories:

Fixed Pop decided by the creator
Pop * tile
Pop * Tc
Less pop cost for costly units (activated or not)
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by DoomCarrot » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:02 am

I think everything should probably be one pop honestly.

Because if you make more expensive units cost more pop, it will actually just limit their usefuleness, not make people actually build them. :?
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by goose88 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:00 am

So before I was thinking that on a per-turn basis the expensive units would be "cheaper" in pop units. But, you're right, that causes the same problem. Why would you make a Hoplite that costs 4 pop when a fully upgraded Man-at-Arms is just as good and only costs 2? I think one flat is the way to go. Obviously this should probably be an option when you start the game.

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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by DoomCarrot » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:42 am

Good idea goose, just let this be another option: weighted pop or flat pop :lol:
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:50 am

Yes, variants are a good thing imho

Btw If a 8 turns hoplite is useless we should just improve it...
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by DoomCarrot » Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:31 pm

7 turn hoplite now. :)

Although it should probably be 6.
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:21 pm

I agree

It might be strong but it is still slower than cavalry and cost like 2 knights
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:29 am

i have a suggestion
For every new tc you capture, you get 100 food
For every tc you hold, you get 10 food per turn.
For every structure you destroy (except castle) you get 50 food
For every castle you destroy, you get 200 -300 food
Similarly you lose food when a structure/tc of yours is lost.

The food bank will show the amount of food you have. Basically, it should be a sum of food and gold. The gold will not be any seperate resource but included in food. So every unit will consume food units equal to its turn cost. Logically, the consumption should be same for all cavalry units. But as the hussars are more profeciant , they get more gold and hence consume more food units (the gold is included in food )
suppose the food is not enough, then the weak soldiers will start having their health halved one by one. Units having incomplete health will die first.
fir each turn the unit stays hungry, it loses 1/2 or 1/4 health
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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:29 am

Did you get it?
Do u like it?
BEWARE!!!!The long lost empire of phoenicia is rising- The world is but just near the golden age,wherein men played and frolicked,without any worries at all


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Re: Variant rule - food limits

Post by Disco » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:59 am

TheBluePhoenix wrote:Did you get it?
Do u like it?
Yes I like it. The starvation games :D

Though obviously this would need testing and twerking.
Also id suggest a little lower starvation rate, mainly because it would leave room for come-backs.

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