Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

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enrich
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Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by enrich » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:12 am

the banshee currently only serves the small SMALL niche to give skeleton warriors extra attack damage to a strong units. it is completely overshadowed by the mummy which costs one turn less at 3 and can insta-kill units or disable them with curse. and unlike the banshee (and all undead units) it can actually do SOMETHING to buildings and curse them. and the mummy actually has respectable bulk compared to the banshee. That said, its extremely easy to play around the undead and its spells.
the banshee therefore just doesn't earn its keep it needs to be rebalanced EITHER by:
>making it 2 turns( or at LEAST 3 turns). it would basically make it a good long range unit on par with elves if not better. and it already has the stats of a 2 turn long range unit.
>making It a flying unit. I mean...I don't see no legs. Again it would make it a really good starting unit but easy to play around.
>giving it better stats making it able o take at least two hits. it should be around 17-18 hp.
>giving it the assassin ability to only be hit by adjacent units.
>and lastly...making scream able to hit through into garrisoned units. this would greatly help alleviate the biggest problem the undead face, which is that they are literally walled by units hiding in buildings. it should at least be able to hit units inside towns. and it should also be able to hit inside units like fortress and castle, where units can attack from inside, because logically scream is a sound based "spell" so it should be able to go through holes and openings. transport units and other buildings would remain the same.
>a variation of all this is just to give it 5-8 ranged attack at the cost of three turns and the inherent ability to put fear on units.

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Alexander82
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Re: Balancing Banshee

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:47 pm

I think this is mostly cause sacrifice killer and curse are too good spells... lacking proper ranged units orcs cannot defeat undeads even though on paper they seem stronger. Any good unit is easily disabled and you haven't ant anti caster unit and every dead becomes a enemy.

On the other hand i think undead are balanced with other races
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Stratego (dev)
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Re: Balancing Banshee

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:18 am

ok, i have changed it a bit, on next update will be in.
(up on server in 2 hours)

enrich
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Re: Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by enrich » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:40 am

Its really easy to get around the undead. Right now all you need to do is build fortreses or towers and thats it. They are literally walled. The spells dont mean anything when they canf go through into garrisoned units or hit wagons. Orcs can just build stone shelters and wagons and periodically launch strategic attacks to try to capture undead towns. Once captured you just need to stuff them full and itbwill be hard for an undead player to take them over. The only units that the undead can actually give orcs trouble are their skeleton dragon and vampire. But the vampire can be countered with an ettin or archers. If ur going against the undead with no other players pesent or even ai. Then its your win since YOU can actially controll whether or not they get dragons in the first place.
As a general rule of thumb you should keep in mind that any unit you bring out can and will be used against you:
>Dont make dragons except for defensive purposes only, as they can either be converted or insta killed and revived.
>Hamelbacks should only be used for defensive purposes and with caution. They drop weak units that can be killed easily to provide skelletons to summon a dragon.
> Delete your own units. You should mainly be quick rading in groups of buffed elite orc warriors stuffed in a wagons. One orc with double strike can kill an undead knight. And with knock back its easy to go through the battlefield. The undead have no siege. Their strongest building attacker the ghoul only does 27 damage to the 130 hp stone shelter. You dont want them converting your actually usefull orc warriors. Plus its a numbers game so if you kill a lich or even a mummy that cost more turns you can affor to kill them. This also ensures that they dont convert your units then place three of them next to a lich delete them and then summon a dragon. (although i have yet to see someone else using liches and mummies to this level, IM fully aware of their full potential so always prepare against it)

enrich
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Re: Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by enrich » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:53 am

So yeah orcs are stronger if played to their strenght. Revived units can at most be 2hkod and in the eyes of orcs should only be viewed as being in the way

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Alexander82
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Re: Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:39 pm

No, i'm making some tests and orcs are totally disabled by undeads. You are stuck with a horde of skeletons in the way and any near unit is disabled and unable to make anything useful, so, in the end, any good undead player can win any 1 vs 1 with orcs, no matter how hard you try (even if orcs manage to get the double of tcs at the start). Once you make vampires and disable riders you've won.
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Re: Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:10 pm

enrich wrote:Its really easy to get around the undead. ...
i agree.

enrich
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Re: Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by enrich » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:16 pm

What im saying is the bulk of your army should be made up of orc warriors that cost only two turns. Wolf riders cost 4 turns but once theyre both upgraded they kill most undead units basically the same. With only one or two hits. And with double strike they will both kill all undead units except for vampire and dragon. You should only use wolf riders for that extra 2 space reach when in a wagon to capture towns that your orc warriois cleared. Its up to you to make sure that you will not provide the other player horse skelletons.
Play a game against me and ill show you how to counter the undead.

enrich
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Re: Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by enrich » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:35 pm

Daniel (the dev) wrote:
enrich wrote:Its really easy to get around the undead. ...
i agree.
Yup the orcs should be good against any race 1v1 if played right

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Alexander82
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Re: Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:38 pm

I use tons of upgraded orcs warrior vut their strenght is useless if they can't act. As i have said i'm doing some tests and it is like this because you have no way to deal with vampires and casters. You might have a unit that deal 2000 damage, but if that unit can't act or move or it is killed by a spell there are few thinfs you can do about it
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Re: Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:57 pm

you misunderstand the point: you must not train costy units at all (against such enemy can get rid of a few big units), they will get eliminated, but train a horde of cheap but strong orcs and you will rush the enemy.

enrich
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Re: Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by enrich » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:30 pm

To further elaborate and to come out and explicitly say it. You should be using wagons. The humble wagon is hands down THE best unit in the game. It allows for flexibility in your gameplay. They allow you to protect your units, masc what units you are using, protect from spells, transport them, sometimes get in the way and divert enemy focus from your units, and last ditch efforts to protect a town.
People throw workers away trying to build towers when they sometimes offer little strategic value. Its often better to just put workers to build wagons. Its more efficient that way since they won't be running around getting killed and sometimes just so one unit can come and destroy the unfinished building.
Using wagons makes for better game play but people usually prefer to play it defensively and just build towers. If you start building towers close to your corner of the map once you finish your buildings that pretty much says that you plan on playing a loosing game where you need to prepare early on to enemy attacks. Where you should be focused on getting YOUR units to your enemy to disrupt them as fast as possible. And unless you're humans with catapults that strategy is most times just not even feasable.

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Alexander82
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Re: Balancing Banshee - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:49 pm

Orc warriors are cheap. They cost 2. Orcs havent cheaper units. I might use a wagon but it would be cirsed or killed eith its content...
I use to try a fast attack, but i often am stopped by enemy casters.
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