Golias & Goliath Suits

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DoomsdayDragonfire
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Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:22 pm

As mentioned on the HAT topic, i made these suits inspired by the AMP suit from AVATAR movie, if you don't know what is an AMP or what is this movie, i recomend you to watch (come on, it is an 2010 movie, not that old... :lol: ), anyway, the description of the thing is basically this https://james-camerons-avatar.fandom.co ... y_Platform

Ok, presentations done, lets move to the units, to start:

Golias AMP, this version comes with 2 integrated portable railguns to pierce anything in the way.
Golias AMP.png
Golias AMP.png (1.21 KiB) Viewed 1477 times
Alone
Golias Support.png
Golias Support.png (1.64 KiB) Viewed 1477 times
with a rifleman for size comparison

And Goliath AMP, this one have traditional arms for multipurpose tasks, this version, it carries a (Random name gun) 30mm Autocannon.
Goliath AMP.png
Goliath AMP.png (1.29 KiB) Viewed 1477 times
Alone
Goliath Support.png
Goliath Support.png (1.7 KiB) Viewed 1477 times
with a rifleman for size comparison

Stats? I haven't made any yet, so that's is up to you guys. Thats it :lol:
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:27 pm

Forgot to post those...

I also made a Mega sized Dog for AMP support
Inf Mega Cyborg Dog.png
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and a squad of normal sized dogs for basic infantry support
Inf Cyborg Dog squad.png
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:31 pm

A few middly important notices:
Humans don't have railguns, they have laser gun (like hlg). And they don't use the standard shells anymore (I think that's what you mean by "traditional arms for multipurpose tasks"). I think laser would be superior to both of those weapons. We might save them for other faction (not reptilans). If you want him to have two variants, then one with hlgs (at) and one with beam gun (anti-infantry).
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:38 pm

Also an über important notice: are those images 64×64? Sort of not look like... If not, change that immediately, before I find it out.
If any image will be wrong, other than 64×64 or multiple of 64, I swear I will...
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:46 pm

Midonik wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:31 pm
A few middly important notices:
Humans don't have railguns, they have laser gun (like hlg). And they don't use the standard shells anymore (I think that's what you mean by "traditional arms for multipurpose tasks"). I think laser would be superior to both of those weapons. We might save them for other faction (not reptilans). If you want him to have two variants, then one with hlgs (at) and one with beam gun (anti-infantry).
Since you said you would like to see some realism, i made some few (many) notes about your comments.
btw, why they don't have railguns and what is a laser gun for you? I guess we have different views of what is a laser gun.
Midonik wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:38 pm
Also an über important notice: are those images 64×64? Sort of not look like... If not, change that immediately, before I find it out.
If any image will be wrong, other than 64×64 or multiple of 64, I swear I will...
Since i already did created many stuff for this game, this sounds offensive for me :lol: :lol:
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:26 am

And some of them forced me to resize them and waste time I wanted to spent making JSONs...
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:24 pm

Sorry bout that :lol: :lol: , i thought you could work with sizes other than multiples of 64px at that time :lol: :lol:
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:30 pm

No problem, just don't do that again.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:51 pm

Ok, now a more important thing... Can you clear this for me? i'm really curious about it...
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:46 pm
btw, why they don't have railguns and what is a laser gun for you? I guess we have different views of what is a laser gun.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:56 pm

Err. dang why I'm in charge of this I'm not an sci-fi expert?
Well as far as I know both laser guns and railguns shoots some sort of electromagnetic waves, that can cut through matter or something. The difference is that railgun is being developed atm, by the US Navy (tho it doesn't work yet) and the laser one is a bit more advanced thing I guess.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:50 pm

Ah you reffer to nowdays... Well. Both are actually under use already, but there is some problems that limit their use in mass, with railgun, is mostly related to the heat isulating materials, the heat generated by the friction of the parts takes time to cooldown, so atm, they can shoot once a minute (thats is not a acceptable firerate for the military, but i think in less than 5 or 6 years, that will be solved), so for use effects, railguns work perfectly, while lasers, well i guess i will explain later...

1) The principle of operation of a Railgun is relatively simple consisting of a long tunnel enveloped by large and powerful electromagnets within it runs a rail which serves as a guide for the projectile which is typically a relatively small and light metal ammunition, so those objects are thrusted at hipervelocity speed by magnets instead of the conventional explosive chemical thrust power... according to the physics of the expansion of gases the projectile fired by a conventional cannon based on the strength of chemical explosives have a pipe exit speed limited to about 1.5 kilometers per second and a maximum range of 80 kilometers... While a projectile fired by an electromagnetic cannon can have an exit speed of more than three kilometers per second (with the current materials) which translates in a greater reach and mainly in a kinetic power of destruction much greater So they deliver a stupid amount of kinetic power when hit that just pierce stuff (like a laser). Pretty much similar as coilguns and gauss guns for matter of effect (those 2 are a more miniaturized version, but escensse is the same).

1.1) While Laser is just focused IR-Radiation (low specter) with a colorized pointer so we can see it (bcz infra red is invisible to our eyes), they are good as complementary force due many reasons, but i doubt it will ever substitute ballistics weaponry since to work, lasers need a massive source of energy to destroy the target fast enough (and focus so the heat of saturation can surpass the heat absortion to melt it out) + ideal weather conditions (The performance of laser weapon is affected by atmospheric phenomena such as clouds, rain, vapour etc.), and choose the most opaque targets as possible, since mirrored or high reflexive surfaces as it is almost useless because they can easilly reflect on mirrored platings or be absorved by energy and heat isulating materials. I'm not saying lasers are bad, but they have differents task than the conventional ballistics, ballistic weaponry is for the hard duty, it is cheap and reliable, most can work even after ebing hit by EMP, while all laser components would fry... Lasers are for a more precision task, they work much better at distance and over time than ballistics. (Like charging Death Star's Death Ray... That's why tachyon beams rocks).

Now going more to future, as this is sci-fi game.

2) To humans spacetravel, they need energy, lot of it, and what is the best source of energy we have? Our Sun! So how do we can not get some of it, but all of it? A dyson sphere or at least a dyson swarm, that will afford the energy needed to produce all spacecrafts components to travel between our solar system and outher space, to make colonies, terraform planets, and to afford many, many, many computational power that the civilization will need at that point, in order to make new technologies and data transfer between colonies.

2.1) And for build a dyson sphere, you need to disassemble one or more planets and send those parts to space, and the most affortable way to send stuff to orbit on low gravity scenarios, is by shooting them with a railgun, so it is a must have tech in a space building and warfare. Untill we create mass drivers (that is pretty much same than railguns, but works also with gravity generators to minimize contacts between the parts and shoot any kind of matter...) telekinetic powers, or something better... So why would they abandon such basic thing?

2.2) "what about those lasers guns on Star wars/Star trek?" Well they are not laser guns, they mostly use the blasters and phasers, that uses high speed plasma bolts, not IRR laser, but plasma as we know, works more to a weird gas (it is not a gas, but is the closest thing to relate) than a beam... So those can only happen in cinema... AND SOME GAMES :lol: :lol:

I guess this could clear why i got confused when you said that, you told me you wanted a more realistic aproach, so reeeeeee :?
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:01 pm

Tldr
Well later, for now thanks for decent explanation.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:55 pm

OK :lol:
Anyway, i was thinking, is possible to make them transport the infantry? And the infantry is able to shoot, so we can use those imgs with soldier to, like, apear as they are advancing together for a coordinated atk between them?
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:36 am

No
Trust me, as I'm too lazy to list why, but no. Basically we would need to do the same with tanks and other stuff to make that make sense and I don't want, also some other stuff.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:07 pm

So... We still consider the railguns the energy weapons?
So basically laser weapons would completely like sucks for military needs. Oh no it's rainy lols no shooting.

Dang, what do you suggest because of that?
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:01 pm

No, They are ballistic (i say "they" bcz it is the same for coilgun and gauss gun) since you use a solid projectile as ammunition. These guns electro magnetically propels a ballistic projectile, it just change the method of how they do.

Kind of, but since we are humans, we can turn anything into a weapon :lol: Anyway, as i said, they have different tasks, the biggest problem of DEWs is the thermal/eletrical "blooming" (It's more of a consequence than a problem itself), wherein Laser beams, begin to cause plasma breakdown in the atmosphere at energy densities of around one megajoule per cubic centimetre. This effect, called "blooming," causes the laser to defocus and disperse energy into the surrounding air. Blooming can be more severe if there is fog, smoke, or dust in the air. So effective, high performance laser weapons seem to be difficult to achieve with the current and maybe even with near future technology... Although for space warfare, it is very suitable since that doesn't apply there, Lasers travel at light-speed and have near infinite range (still, we would not see the pew pews around). Btw, when we reach these High performance lasers, we probably will have at hands high performance ballistics with speeds NTL itself...

Well, i think the old good ballistics will always stay with us on the ground as the main firepower, others will be on complement of it, untill we actually, learn superpowers. :lol: :lol: . On the space, in other hand, things work on another scale of magnitude, and many things provide a great headaxe to physics laws... So is kinda hard and scary to say what is effective or not... Autors, when making sci-fi stuff, have a good freedom on what they put on their stuff. And usually don't explain the concept to don't break the futuristic atmosphere, so as long it makes some sense, you are free to go.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by godOfKings » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:37 pm

Basically rail gun and missile is same, both physical weapon

Difference is missile can carry bigger payload, while rail gun is very fast (but takes long time to reload, although this drawback might b gotten rid of in tge future) and very high range, usually fitted on tanks and battleships

Also humans have weaker laser technology so energy based weapon is less efficient than physical weapon (laser tank can b medium tank with lower energy based damage and pl-01 can b medium tank with stronger physical based damage from railguns)


And u can make some other race stronger in energy(laser) based weapon
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:54 pm

The masters of the lasers are undoubtedly the reptilans. They are also the only ones using plasma (mines, grenades, torpedoes and missiles - let's just say they can trigger the explosion or however that worked of plasma on contact and that works, and they need the techs for that btw).
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:58 pm

So now I'm supposed to fit the railguns into the game? Dang. What are they supposed to be good against? Can they be rifle size? So many questions, so little answers.
But we are abandoning the normal guns at least?
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by godOfKings » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:18 pm

No u got it wrong, infantry sized rail gun like weapon is as effective as gun powder based bullet, they can only penetrate flesh much better (so can high intensity laser) so they both r similar effective against other infantry

Against tank, the heavy beam gun of infantry is good enough as at weapon (but energy based)

I already told u that laser is energy and rail gun is physical so laser is still useful against units with low energy armor

And ammo of rail gun is lighter than missile so although they can make a nice hole in the wall of buildings, their explosion won't deal that much damage inside so low bonus (if any) against buildings, on the other hand laser can not only Pierce a hole in the wall, but also set the insides on fire

So laser has higher bonun on buildings than rail gun (but for humans the damage of laser is still greatly dwarfed by missiles, whether super high speed from jet bombers, or super high pay load from large rocket launchers)

Another thing, missiles of all planes should deal lower damage (may b lower bonus) against tanks compared to rail guns of tanks, because rail guns r more accurate than missiles of planes and they both have similar penetrating power thus rail gun will always have higher bonus against tanks and armors than missiles (but 60 foot mechas and fortress sized mobile tanks/battle ships r exceptions because they r too large and easy targets for jet bombers and because of bigger payload missiles will deal higher damage from direct hit than rail guns)

May laser weapon has faster reload time than rail guns too
Last edited by godOfKings on Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:22 pm

Tldr
Jk
Ok so rail guns weak against bulidings, strong vs vehicles and infantry. What units should use it? I'm not going to make an one laser one physical variant of every unit so we must decide both for humans and reptilans. Reptilans must be mostly laser tho.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by godOfKings » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:32 pm

If rail gun is to b effective against tanks, it has to b b huge too, so only cannons of medium /heavy tanks and other large units like mechas can use rail guns that r actually effective against tanks, at infantry should either use missiles (like futuristic RPG/bazooka) or laser weapon, rail gun is less effective than conventional gun because it has slow fire rate, but against large infantry (like alpha) railgun based weapon will have higher bonus than bullet because of higher penetrating power (so will laser unless alpha is wearing shiny armor with reflective shields)

And if reptilians r good with laser in general then their basic armor should also have high energy armor


Final verdict, at rail guns can only b fit on large vehicles, smaller infantry rail guns r too slow but good against infantry with thick skin/physical armor, and laser/bullet has higher fire rate than rail gun so they r more effective in killing swarms of smaller infantry like insects
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:38 pm

Alphas aren't consider huge but whatever, brutes are.
So we only want it on at vehicles (tho EMP would be superior...) and some can work as alternative weapons for laser. Buy are comparable if not worse because of fire rate to laser. They can have bonuses against bigger flesh and blood units like brutes tho. Did I get it right? I don't really see a use for it then.

Dang I'm so confused.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by godOfKings » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:45 pm

Yes u got it right pretty much

Tanks with missiles r effective against buildings and h.tanks (which r slow)

Tanks with rail guns r effective against vehicles,light,medium and h.tanks and mechas (may b lower damage on h.tanks than missile but missile is more likely to miss smaller vehicles) and less effective against buildings

Also rail gun should b standard cannon on tanks for humans not laser gun so only few laser based tanks that r good against units will low e.armor
Last edited by godOfKings on Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by godOfKings » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:49 pm

Btw if u consider the direct and correct meaning of emp, they can only fry electronic circuits but not physically damage anything

So its useless other than stunning a fully electronic automated drone/mecha/tank and may b capturing them
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by Midonik » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:55 pm

Well the vehicles are often extremely realing on electronics so frying then up would probably cause damage. Like it does atm.
If only one then we should change current laser tank into one with railgun as I assume the hovercraft tank that is supposed to be anti infantry won't be so good with railgun with low fire rate. That makes another problem sort of as I would need to take the charged beam ability from it.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by godOfKings » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:16 pm

The main point is, heavy laser attack, like at infantry and charged beam of hovercraft, should deal less damage than rail gun (although still high damage, but less damage compared to a reptilian heavy laser of same cost) and rail gun cannot b equiped on light tanks so it is expensive, it is not necessary to give only one energy based weapon to humans, keep current mechanics, just that add costlier rail gun for medium/h.tanks that r more effective than lasers because human r supposed to have higher physical damage than energy based
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:59 pm

Well, railguns are effective against everything imo, but for gameplay factors you can consider it as a very, very, very improved APFSDS anti-tank cannon.

But if you want a minor railgun for infantry, you should check coilguns (aka gauss rifle), different from railgun that can be used for many non-military uses, coilguns were being researched for weaponry purposes since the principle behind is simple enough to be miniaturized and sized as an assault rifle (Although, it was abandoned in favor of the railguns some time ago).
Coilgun_animation.gif
Coilgun_animation.gif (56.09 KiB) Viewed 1375 times
Basically on a multistage coilgun, the projectile enters the barrel, then a large current is pulsed through the coil of wire and a strong magnetic field forms, pulling the projectile to the center of the coil, that makes the projectile be attracted by the first pack of electromagnets, then when the projectile reach the first pack, the power is switched to the next pack of electromagnets, so in order to keep the mommentum it received, the projectile is forced to go faster in order to reach the next set of magnets, and this process goes till it reaches the end of the barrel, so, the final speed is much higher of the one that the projectile started.

The problems are, on the multistage coilgun, are:
- The need of Ferromagnetic materials on the projectiles. (otherwise it would simpply not attract the projectile)
- The right time when swiching power over the electromagnets. (otherwise, projectile would lose the speed or stuck on the middle of the barrel)
- The eletrical resistance and ESR from the source that dissipates a lot of power.
- The fact of the 100% magnetic force can't be applyied at the projectile since magnetic circuits are nearly impossible due to energy losses always present in a real system, which cannot be eliminated entirely.

But lets say that these problems were solved in future, that would mean small sized weapons with a very nice RoF and penetration.
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by godOfKings » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:57 pm

DoomsdayDragonfire wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:59 pm
Well, railguns are effective against everything imo, but for gameplay factors you can consider it as a very, very, very improved APFSDS anti-tank cannon.
I did say rail guns r more effective than h.laser against tanks, light vehicles and even ships (but as ships and heavy tanks r quite large, they r easy target for missiles and jet bombers so they r more effective than rail guns)

So my list of units that use rail guns

At defensive turret with high bonus against tanks (emp cannon would deal much lower damage, 5-6max in my opinion but stun target for 2-3 turns that can b removed by engineeres)

At medium/ heavy tanks (low bonus against buildings as rocket launchers would b more specialized for destroying buildings)

Rail gun cannon is standard weapon for battleships, (with aa and anti-building missiles as more specialized weapon or ability etc. )

Mechas and infantry (either at weapon (but not infantry) or against large infantry and low flying hovercraft transports)
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DoomsdayDragonfire
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Re: Golias & Goliath Suits

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:42 pm

That makes sense, armor from above is much more smaller than in the front and the sides in most of vehicles, i agreed with that.
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