Elven evasion tech pack - IMPLEMENTED

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Alexander82
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Re: Improved reflexes

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:45 pm

Can't you just open a topic to propose an elven healer then?

Anyway what I was trying to say before is that you generally use your spellcasters to disable strong units (eg. An imperial knight). When i'm sending against you a swarm of archers what happens is one of the following:

1) the caster dies before using a spell (since elves outrange him and are faster too).

2) i disable one archer and i die from the arrows of the other 9 archers.

So archers are themselves (imho) a counter for casters.

If what you want to say is that you want elves to have a spell to remove negative effects then go on, i agree with you. Propose it in a new topic and we can add it to the vote list. We might just add the spell to one of elven existing casters.
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Re: Improved reflexes

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:30 am

I can see your point. Playing orcs, I notice curse, fear spells are nearly useless against a horde of master orc warriors. curse one, and it falls behind as the rest advance. Mummies are only really good against expensive​, powerful units. Other than that they aren't much worse than mosquitoes​.
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Re: Improved reflexes

Post by The Pendulum » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:44 pm

Alexander82 wrote:Can't you just open a topic to propose an elven healer then?

Anyway what I was trying to say before is that you generally use your spellcasters to disable strong units (eg. An imperial knight). When i'm sending against you a swarm of archers what happens is one of the following:

1) the caster dies before using a spell (since elves outrange him and are faster too).

2) i disable one archer and i die from the arrows of the other 9 archers.

So archers are themselves (imho) a counter for casters.

If what you want to say is that you want elves to have a spell to remove negative effects then go on, i agree with you. Propose it in a new topic and we can add it to the vote list. We might just add the spell to one of elven existing casters.
I'm sorry, I thought I made it clear that is what I was talking about: giving elves a unit to counter megative status effects like curse...

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Alexander82
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Re: Improved reflexes

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:27 pm

What about a new spell for druids? I think they are already useful as summoners so they might become more multipurpose.
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Alexander82
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Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:59 am

Cost:

Lv 1 = 4
Lv 2 = 6
Lv 3 = 8

Effect:

All melee elves gain a chance to avoid melee attacks.

Lv 1 = 10%
Lv 2 = 20%
Lv 3 = 30%
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Alexander82
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Dodge arrows (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:02 pm

Cost:

Lv 1 = 4
Lv 2 = 6
Lv 3 = 8

Effect:

All elves gain a chance to dodge ranged attacks

Lv 1 = 10%
Lv 2 = 20%
Lv 3 = 30%
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Alexander82
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Re: Improved reflexes

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:28 pm

Changed the concept
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Alexander82
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Re: Dodge arrows (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:29 pm

image
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Alexander82
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:29 pm

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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:43 pm

images for the 3 levels
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Alexander82
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Re: Dodge arrows (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:43 pm

images for the 3 levels
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Alexander82
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Re: Improved reflexes

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:44 pm

images for the 3 levels
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:47 pm

At first glance, it seems a little low a percentage, but after some thought I see the balance is perfect for sentinel, swords dancer, and unicorn riders. Basic elf melee is just so weak it translates to a 10/20/30% reduction in loses, but higher cost elf melee can easily combine this, lembas, and a calculated retreat to heal to become really hard to kill.

Sounds like it's ready to vote up.
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Re: Dodge arrows (3 levels)

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:48 pm

Other half of evasion. Could we put it in the same vote instead of voting them in separately?
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Alexander82
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Re: Dodge arrows (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:49 pm

This one is for all elves, that does mean that elven archers might gain an edge against headhunters and skirmishers and this is especially good if you go for mages too.
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:52 pm

Yes, if you make some reasoning made on a whole army i think that those percentages aren't low at all. They also gained a good base protection from counterattacks (that you can increase with improved reflexes).

I'm trying to make elven melee units a viable way to play this race, but in his own way.
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Re: Dodge arrows (3 levels)

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:42 pm

Sorry, I wasn't exactly clear. I think separate techs is a good idea, especially having dodge arrows for all elves. What I was asking is can we implement both sets of techs in the same update, from the same weekly vote.
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:48 pm

Let's get these techs in place and I think​ we will see a lot more use of elf melee. It still won't be the​ bulk of the army, but we will have the more expensive melee elves harassing enemy lines and then retreating behind archers and wolves to heal. And it doesn't even feel like it's making bulky units out of them, just fast enough to not get hit.
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Alexander82
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Re: Dodge arrows (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:42 pm

I think it might be ok for the evasion block
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:46 pm

That was the idea. The real problem of the elven race is the lack of a decent melee component. Elven archers are great but they need some meatshield in front of them.
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:51 am

Somewhat abnormal question, but I have to wonder how this will play out with assassins? The only elf melee unit worth one is sentinel, but with this maxed out, does that mean a 30% chance an assassin will miss, revealing themselves? Can't say that's too much of a downside, since it just discourages using assassins against​ elf sentinel only, but this question may become more important if units get a dodge chance and are actually assassin bait.
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Alexander82
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:55 am

I'd say that dodge shouldn't prevent assassinations since you need to know that an enemy is attacking you to evade a strike

Do you agree?
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:16 am

That's probably the best way to go. I'd rather have an answer now rather than having the shielding techs you suggested make it in and people are griping their assassin MISSED on that 10% when trying to hit an imperial knight.
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:23 am

We might also add a different tech if we want to defend from assassinations, but it should be specific (something like awareness or reflexes)
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:33 am

Maybe instinct? Not sure. Assassins are sort of our ultimate balancing tool, and I don't want to mess with that. No matter how op something is, if it's over 4 cost, assassins can balance it. If they start missing, that gets harder to do. So as nice as it sounds, this is one aspect of the game I think I will curb myself from messing with.
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:52 am

I would agree if all races had assassins. Anyway, if we decide to allow some degree of protection from assassins, we can use different names based on the race. Elves might use their reflexes, Orcs their animalistic senses, undeads some form of clairvoyance and humans some training related awareness.
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:18 am

Well, let's go literally by race, where trolls are separate from orcs, ents from elves, etc. This lets the percentage be fine tuned a little based on what is being helped. For example, I'd be a lot happier seeing orcs have a decent chance to escape assassins than trolls, since orc king is about the only true orc worth one. On a race by race level, it makes you choose what big units you care to protect first too.
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Alexander82
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:29 am

Do you mean a separate skill for any race? Anyway the protection might happen in different ways. For example elves might have some scouts that is able to spot assassins.
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:28 pm

Say an upgrade to fairies? I haven't found much use for them compared to just using wolves to scout. Orc version might be something that gives them vanishing, as if they took a fatal wound but refuse to go down. Undead I could see being the ones with a significant miss chance, since they aren't "alive" in the sense​ that normal lethal techniques might not work. Can't stab a skeleton through the heart, and you can't get blood from a mummy that's already dried out.
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Alexander82
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Re: Evasion (3 levels)

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:43 pm

Sunrise Samurai wrote:Say an upgrade to fairies? I haven't found much use for them compared to just using wolves to scout. Orc version might be something that gives them vanishing, as if they took a fatal wound but refuse to go down. Undead I could see being the ones with a significant miss chance, since they aren't "alive" in the sense​ that normal lethal techniques might not work. Can't stab a skeleton through the heart, and you can't get blood from a mummy that's already dried out.
Agree on undeads. They generally are also immune to critical hits in gdr since they have no vital spots.
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