Elven Archers/Quick Archers - ANSWERED

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The Pendulum
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Elven Archers/Quick Archers - ANSWERED

Post by The Pendulum » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:31 am

As i was redesigning the Elven Quick archer's art, it started to bug me that at some point, i would redesign to regular archer. It bugged me, because there's really no difference between the regular archer and the quick archer other than that the quick archer gets an extra attack. This of course makes the regular archer obsolete because one extra attack power point does NOT matter when you can basically get two archers for one extra turn.

In short: the quick archer outclasses the regular archer; there is no point,ever, in opting for the regular archer over the quick archer.

Then it dawned on me.

Why don't we rename the quick archer to "Forest Marksmen" or "Forest Archer"; rename the regular "Archer" to "Imperial Longbowmen".

Keep the stats for the quick archer as they are, i feel that they should be the quick, nimble two shotters that they are, and change the regular archer stats to: 3 speed and 9 (or 10) range. As it is, the elves dont get archery upgrades, and for having the best archers of all the races (lore wise) it makes sense that they would have unwatchable skill at long shots as well, despite the humans longbowmen and crossbow/archery upgrades. After all, their longbowmen were made famous in the battle of Helms Deep, and we are clearly drawing some inspiration from LOTR. This would also give me a much better opportunity to give the regular archer a unique look.

Thoughts?

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Sunrise Samurai
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:18 am

Interesting, but keep in mind we are still discussing upgrades for them, so I would say set range to 8, and let upgrade space exist to reach 10. And I prefer the name being Elven sniper. Lol I've been pondering this same change for a bit, though I was thinking make it an upgrade to the elf archer. This probably works better.
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The Pendulum
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by The Pendulum » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:32 am

Sunrise Samurai wrote:Interesting, but keep in mind we are still discussing upgrades for them, so I would say set range to 8, and let upgrade space exist to reach 10. And I prefer the name being Elven sniper. Lol I've been pondering this same change for a bit, though I was thinking make it an upgrade to the elf archer. This probably works better.
Elven Sniper works; so does Imperial Sniper.
Might make it seem less human if the word longbow isn't in the name. I see what youre saying about upgrades. I hadn't taken them into account, so I was suggesting their range be so high without upgrades. I agree with your point though.

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The Pendulum
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by The Pendulum » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:57 am

I thought of another name for the quick Archer: instead of Forest Archer, how about "Elven Ranger"?

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Alexander82
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:09 pm

I don't agree, with the balance between normal and fast archer.

If you fight a target like a mummy (4 pierce) you can see that the damage dealt il the same (2 damages). Moreover both units still die with a hit of a decent infantry, and having more units is an advantage while defending.

Both unites have their niche but if you want to balance damage you might think raising hp of fast archer to resist the first hit but lower attack to 4.
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Hardeep
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by Hardeep » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:30 am

First of all, the elves were never at helms deep (Haldir didn't die there)
Second of all, I think this is a good idea :D
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The Pendulum
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by The Pendulum » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:42 am

Alexander82 wrote:I don't agree, with the balance between normal and fast archer.

If you fight a target like a mummy (4 pierce) you can see that the damage dealt il the same (2 damages). Moreover both units still die with a hit of a decent infantry, and having more units is an advantage while defending.

Both unites have their niche but if you want to balance damage you might think raising hp of fast archer to resist the first hit but lower attack to 4.
I agree that higher health is good, but i dont think it makes sense to give an archer more health. If we are to believe that we're sticking with traditional roles here, a higher health archer is silly.
Why not give the quick archer the ability to move after attacking?

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Alexander82
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:16 pm

Daniel was working to make every unit able to finish its movement point after an action.

What about raising the fast archer attack to 6 and raise cost by 1?
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The Pendulum
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by The Pendulum » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:23 pm

Alexander82 wrote:Daniel was working to make every unit able to finish its movement point after an action.

What about raising the fast archer attack to 6 and raise cost by 1?
Whatbyourebproposing is basically make the quick archer have the same stats as the regular archer but double the cost (because double attacks)? Am i reading this right? Balance wise, this seems logical, and the best way to balance the two units together, but this raises the question, why have two units that do the same thing for the same price equivalency. No offense, but i just dont see any way of winning this, in my mind.

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Alexander82
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:14 pm

The real motivation would be that you can place 3 in a parapet to deal 6 attacks instead of 3
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The Pendulum
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by The Pendulum » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:53 am

And what does motivation have to do with anything?

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Alexander82
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:20 pm

I meant that a fast archer would still be better to defend since every fast archer put in a parapet would provide 2 attacks. In certain maps you have limited space for fortifications and you would rather place 3 fast archers in a tower instead of 3 archers.

Anyway i can't get the issue you are talking of.
Before you say that a fast archer is better than a normal archer for a single +1 turn, but when i suggest of raising the fast archer cost and increasing attack to make it fair with the normal archer you disagree.

The elf archer is already the best base archer in game so it doesn't really need a power up. To balance that you can improve the fast archer raising the cost or reduce range or attack to the fast archer, there aren't that many options.

I still think that both units are fine as they are since you might still need some fast production from once in a while, so if fast archer is better is not a great issue.
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Alexander82
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Re: Elven Archers/Quick Archers - ANSWERED

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:09 pm

Now that the elven tech pack is in they have been differenced a bit lowering the quick archer range by 1
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